"My relevance in the world hinges on the success of my Instagram"
"My relevance in the world hinges on the success of my Instagram"
Jenny Mollen on the "double-edged sword" of momfluencer culture, her new book, City of Likes, and why phones are like cigarettes
I recently broke my “no email or social media after 5pm rule” because Jenny Mollen and I were emailing back and forth about setting up an interview for the next day.
Jenny is a writer, actor, Instagram personality, and New York Times bestselling author of the essay collections I Like You Just the Way I Am and Live Fast Die Hot. She is extremely funny and you can find her on Instagram @jennymollen and @dictatorlunches, where she posts about her kids’ lunches in a way that somehow manages to be fun, non-precious, and delightfully irreverent.
Jenny’s new novel is called City Of Likes, and was described as follows by Emily Henry:
Jenny Mollen’s City of Likes is a propulsive story of motherhood, social media, and obsession—and the ways we can lose ourselves in each. A delightful blend of social commentary, dark humor, and good old-fashioned suspense that I devoured in two days.
So obviously I wanted to get my hands on a copy ASAP and was very keen to see if Jenny might want to chat about the book and her adventures in momfluencer culture for the newsletter. Hence me breaking my no phone/computer past 5pm rule.
It was 6ish PM and my kids were hovering like vultures and demanding more french fries and then less french fries and then ketchup but not touching the french fries and Jenny said she could do 9Am the following morning.
“That’s totally fine,” I typed in response, “But I haven’t read the book yet, so . . .”
Jenny replied: “Oh we can totally fake it” and I was instantly smitten.
Luckily I didn’t have to totally fake it because a friend of mine dropped off her copy that night and I was able to read the first 100 pages in one juicy sitting (laying?) before bed. SO MUCH GOOD STUFF. Themes include: New motherhood angst, searching for personal fulfillment after motherhood, the unique intoxication of new friendships, and of course, an interrogation of both the fun froth of momfluencer culture as well as the [dark] darkness. City of Likes is sharply funny, narratively gripping, #relatable, and provides a unique glimpse into momfluencer culture from someone who’s been deeply involved in “the biz” for years. Run don’t walk!
Here’s my conversation with Jenny!
What seeds from your own life or the world around you (including Instagram) made you start thinking like, oh, there's a book here.
I knew I couldn't do a book about my life again [Jenny’s first two books were personal essay collections]. I have a big thing about mom influencing in general because I don't want to exploit my children's childhoods for my own financial gain. So I had these two kids and they were real people. It would have been impossible to not write them into a third book. And I didn't want to do that.
And at the time, Instagram had gone from being this platform where we just sort of catalogued our lives and watched ourselves slowly aging as we post every great sunset we happen upon, to this place where you could make real money selling shit for companies. And I found myself becoming sort of a mommy influencer. I wasn't a wellness influencer, I wasn’t an interior design influencer or whatever. I had this messy motherhood type of vibe that brands were really attracted to. And so I started working with companies that wanted me to hock their wares to women between the ages of 18 to let's say, 45. It was so accidental. I happened to be in the right place at the right moment in time. It wasn't anything that I sought out.
And so a friend of mine was like, Jenny, you need to write about this influencing shit. Like, it’s actually happening to you. And then my agent suggested I try my hand at fiction. It took four years. It wasn't easy.
I mean, I'm terrified of writing fiction.
It is truly a different beast.
Yeah, like, the plot points! Like that seems just so scary and daunting.
It's not even plot points because we sort of create plot points without realizing it in nonfiction. The hardest part for me is having to earn every choice your character makes. In my first book, I wrote about hiring my husband a prostitute. I didn't have to really earn the decision because it was part of my real life – it’s not something I made up for a character. And especially when it comes to women in fiction, you don't want your audience to end up hating your main character, so you have to totally earn every single move your protagonist makes, and that was really frustrating.
That makes sense. In an interview you did with Busy Philips for Elle, you said, “This book is a story that haunted me, because it’s about all of my worst fears. It’s something I needed to write, almost as a reminder for myself. In many ways, it’s a confession of guilt.” Can you talk about that?
This book is about all my darkest fears. Because at night, what haunted me about this project was this question. Like, if I’m so busy cataloging my life online for other people, how present am I in my real life for the real people I'm actually supposed to be taking care of? I knew early on that my phone was an issue and that it was a problem because it was pulling me away from my family. I literally hid the phone from my children. Like it was a cigarette! And you know when you're hiding something?
Yes!
You kind of know, like, this is a problem. I didn't understand why. Now I do. Now I get what it was. But at the time, I just knew that this is not good. I don't want them to see it. I don't want them to see me with it or see my need for it. I think I (like many millennial moms), became truly addicted to the external validation that Instagram supplies, and it was very unhealthy. They definitely designed the app in a very smart way, because it is truly Pavlovian.
Do you think new mothers are particularly vulnerable to the external validation of Instagram? I mean, they’re dealing with so many bodily fluids and so many mundane chores, and just mired in the nonstop labor of caretaking. And I feel like that demographic is really thirsty for external validation because they’re not getting it anywhere else. I know I was!
Yes, yeah, true.
And you also experience a sort of erasure of self once you become a mother. I'm curious if you think the desire and drive to sort of perform your selfhood online might be part of what gets new moms hooked on the external validation of social media?
Yes, I think you want to say, I'm okay. Look, I'm okay. It makes us feel so much safer in the world when we can say like, wow, I am doing okay. Look at this picture. It proves it. Yeah, I did have fun! I did have fun and I have the pictures to prove that I was there and that I had fun. It's a little fucked up. I mean, it's pretty dark. It’s very Black Mirror! We do live in a if you didn’t take a picture it didn’t happen culture. I mean, you go to events that are set up only for the photos.
Yes! Like, this will look good on Instagram.
This will good on Instagram. This will photograph well. It doesn't matter that you're in like, a frozen warehouse in the middle of nowhere. You have the rainbow sprinkle bubble bath behind you so everything’s ok!
Oh my god [lots of laughter because a rainbow sprinkle bubble bath]. I’m gonna refer to your interview with Busy again because you guys talked about the issue of momfluencers speaking up about politics. This is something people ask me about all the time (especially now!) And I love how you responded in the Elle piece.
“People are buying sweaters that I'm telling them to buy so I better fucking tell them how to vote whether it lands or not.”
Every time there's a school shooting or something horrible happens politically in this country, I start talking about it and I lose 1,000-5,000 followers. And I think momfluencers are scared that like, it’s all going to go away. If I stop playing by the rules, the lights will go out. You know, your agent will call and ask to see your numbers and followers and what your engagement is like. And these women get scared, right? It's insane though. It really, really disappoints me, especially with women who have large platforms and are married to you know, very powerful men who don't really need the money and are still not posting. It makes me kind of sick.
Yup. Totally shifting gears, but I was really struck by how your protagonist Meg initially views her Instagram as a vision board/diary. Did you ever view Instagram that way? Because I don't think I ever did.
Oh, yeah. Especially with the children. You know, being able to scroll back and see visually where we were last year or what we were doing. It always has been a bit of a diary for me. Like journaling.
I love that. How has your performance of motherhood online shifted since your kids were babies? I mean, we all perform motherhood to a various extent for various audiences, right?
I mean, now that the kids are little people, I can’t take pictures of them without them noticing. Before they were basically props and it was really just me entertaining myself. But now, if I have my phone out, I'm getting a look, or they're saying something, and I don't want it to be so obvious. So I don't do it as often.
Totally. Ok I have to talk to you about this passage from the book about Tribeca [Tribeca is a part of NYC that was once home to struggling artist types in the 1960s and 1970s and now is a place where you can buy one of those same artist lofts for a casual 4.5 million]. Jenny I was dying.
“From Beach Street to Barclay, blondes pushing sticky fingered children and geared out strollers barreled down the sidewalks like drag racers, brushing past each other without so much as a glance or nod of acknowledgement. Everybody was frantic and frazzled, even when there was no reason to be.”
I mean, holy shit. My husband grew up in Tribeca, and for a few months in our twenties, we lived with his parents because we were like, between apartments and you nailed the vibe.
Oh wow, wow. Thank you!
I mean, it doesn’t feel like you’re living in reality, you know?
It really doesn't, and like, where are they all going?
I cannot fathom adjusting to motherhood in that type of energy.
No, I know. And we were there when I was in the throes of postpartum. We had just moved from LA, where I had felt so alone, and I didn't feel safe in the world. Jason was doing Heidi Chronicles at the time and we were living in a two-bedroom Tribeca apartment with my nanny Elvie who was this Guatemalan badass older woman, and New York made me feel safe because I could experience this type of duality. I could be a mom upstairs and then go downstairs to be my own person and write all day. That’s why I loved New York versus LA, where I was just so isolated. I was always in a car, always on the freeway, and I was always getting home just before bedtime. Tribeca was the lesser of two evils. And these Tribeca women! I've always felt like I'm the Grendel of whatever group I'm in, and I was just like, I don't give a fuck where you're going or what you're doing. I don't want to be a part of it. But it was interesting to observe.
Yes! When I was living there, I was working as a dog-runner (because fancy rich people want their fancy Vizslas to go for runs not walks) and I had this bright yellow, decidedly un-chic L.L. Bean anorak. And I remember wearing that jacket and feeling like I was such a badass for daring to be unfashionable in public.
And not wearing all black. Oh my god totally. It’s so weird. And I feel bad for those girls. They're all married to finance guys who are gonna cheat on them. And like, then they're gonna move somewhere fancy outside the city and it’s just a bummer.
I do love the idea of doing all your mom stuff upstairs and then being able to perform your personhood out in the world. As a mom who had babies in a rural location, there was no place to really do that. Like, I wasn’t getting dressed to go to the grocery store, you know?
It was great. I mean, I was a disheveled fucking mess always everywhere I went, but it still gave me a real sense of autonomy.
Yes. Ok, so when Meg gets a job with a couple of guys trying to sell CBD bath bombs, one of them says that “no one is targeting moms” and I laughed so hard. I mean, everyone is targeting moms. Everyone is selling stuff to moms!
I do think it’s interesting to think about how people who aren’t moms view mothers. Like, before I had kids, I would walk past parks, but they weren’t really visible to me. It’s like those Magic Eye pictures that don’t become 3D unless you stare at them long enough. I just don’t think I noticed a lot of this stuff until I had kids.
That's so true. So Meg meets this uber-momfluencer, Daphne. And when she’s trying to explain to the CBD guys why they should partner with Daphne, she says this about successfully selling to moms online:
“You need to talk like them, dress like them and even joke like them. That's how you establish a bond.”
And this is where I see a distinction between momfluencers and almost every other type of influencer. The bonds between momfluencers and their audiences are unique in the influencer economy, right?
Well I don’t think the bond will work if you’re too aspirational. If you’re untouchable. I think that that's why brands moved away from hiring actors to post their shit. Because you can’t relate to them, you know? Like who cares if Joaquin Phoenix thinks I should use this brand of dish soap? You want the testimonial from someone who feels like your best friend.
And when you've seen somebody covered in spit-up in their own bathroom, you will feel closer to that person even if she’s a stranger. I mean, Jason’s been a celebrity since the 1990s, and people don’t approach him on the street often. They’re intimidated. But with me, they don’t give a fuck. I mean, they’ve seen me get my nipples like, sewn together to see what I would look like with a boob lift. They feel like they talk to me every day. I’m this chick that’s spewing shit every 15 minutes online. It’s a different kind of bond.
Does the perceived lack of boundaries ever bite you in the ass?
Oh my God all the time. But I mean, I live in New York, and New Yorkers don't really care about anybody but themselves, right? Which is so nice. They're all doing their own thing. But I do get scared. I'm a child of the 80s, so I always feel like everybody wants to like, kidnap me, rape me, murder me. So even if a woman pushing a stroller approaches me on the street, I still get very freaked out. I don't know how to navigate it. I mean, even last night I was at a book signing in Boston, and the room was filled with probably, I don't know, 86 people. And some of them remembered shit I posted from like 2015, you know? I think it’s still hard for me to believe that there are humans on the other side of the screens. It's just so weird.
Have you ever gotten to a point where you're like, I don't want to do this anymore?
All the time. I hate it. I mean it’s a love/hate relationship. I've talked to so many influencers who feel the same way, who are just like, I'm stuck. Because my entire livelihood sort of hinges on what I do online. I mean, not only my writing career, but my relevance in the world hinges on the success of my Instagram. My value is based on that little number next to my face on this damn app. It's so maddening and it's really a sad reality. I wrote a book that is on some level of condemnation of Instagram, but I needed Instagram to sell the damn thing.
I know. I know. I RELATE. Do you think if you weren't in a creative industry, you would just quit social media entirely?
I believe that, yeah. I think I'd be so much happier. I wouldn't need Zoloft. I'd be a happier person.
What's the longest amount of time you've taken a break from it?
Maybe two weeks? I mean, I've taken the most breaks when I get busy work-wise. Like when I’m writing. Otherwise, I do have the impulse to create. I like making stuff.
So I’m grateful for social media because it launched my entire career. Twitter launched my writing career. Without Twitter, I'd just be some struggling actor in LA married to to Jason Biggs. So I do owe everything to social media. It allowed me to democratize comedy for we female writers in LA. It allowed me to build something out of nothing. It's amazing in certain ways. But it is a double-edged sword. And if you don't feed it, the light goes out.
No, that's such a good point. And social media absolutely allows people with marginalized identities to own their own voices in a way that might not be possible otherwise.
Yes, for sure.
I’m curious if Daphne was based on or inspired by any IRL influencers that people might know.
She’s definitely a composite of many real life influencers for sure. I sprinkled in a little of the WeWoreWhat scandal, a little of the Hilaria Baldwin scandal, there's a bit of Something Navy. But Daphne’s not actually any of those women. I wanted her to be the ultimate influencer. And that relationship between Daphne and Meg is based on, you know, several relationships I've had in my life. Those female friends that just sort of envelop you. I have a lot of experience with those types of relationships.
Oh my god, I am eternally obsessed with the romance of female friendships.
Oh, my God. Isn't it fascinating?
I don't know why people aren’t writing about it more often!
They never write about it.
And it’s one of the most all-consuming type of romance women can experience!
That's what I keep saying! It’s so much more intense than a relationship with a man. It has so much mommy stuff wrapped up in it. Like how can it not?
Oh wow say more about the mommy thing.
I think for me, it triggers so many mommy issues. I want to seek out these women, I want to serve them, I want to be the chosen one. It really all comes down to me probably not having the healthiest attachment to my own mother. So I’m always trying to the find the mom I wanted. Even as I'm trying to be mom I always wanted for my own kids, I'm still, at the end of the day, searching for her in other women in my life.
Totally. And there's also something that feels so safe or cozy about like, just latching onto someone, you know?
Someone who’s scary, almost. Somebody other people are afraid of. Because you feel so safe. You're like, nobody can touch me. I'm untouchable.
And you just feel so special. Like she sees me for who I am. And I am special. Ok, I wanted to flag this passage as a perfect illustration of how momfluencers can specifically lure us in. Meg is talking about Daphne's Insta presence, and says:
“But just when I wanted to cringe, I'd stumble upon a post where she would pour her heart out with a rawness that was so rare to find among influencers of her caliber. She talked about things that women didn't often talk about: her struggles with depression, her dissatisfaction with her body, her thyroid autoimmune disease, her screw-ups with her kids, and her guilt about preferring Netflix over fucking her husband.”
Like, this is the thing that sucks us into momfluencer culture. We’ll be clicking through links, scrolling through pretty pictures, when all of a sudden, something about a particular post will make us feel seen and validated. And then we love that momfluencer for life.
Yeah, it's so true. They're like, I'm struggling to make breastmilk too, and we’re like, oh my god, you get me!
What are some of the negative aspects of momfluencer culture that come to mind for you?
I think that the oversharing has reached a real peak and there's really nowhere to go from here. There's a passage in the book where Daphne’s bitching about this other influencer and she's like, she has a DUI, a UTI, a blah blah blah, you know, this other influencer has allll the things. And she views these things simply as content, you know? Like, have a nervous breakdown on Instagram and who cares what your personal life is like because that’s content and you can mine that shit! And suddenly, some new whatever company comes to you and is like [Jenny does a smarmy announcer voice], I want you to be the face . . . of bladder leakage! You know?! It's so fucking dark. And when people tell me that this is a fun read, I'm just like, horrified. I'm like, are you kidding? These are all of my darkest fears.
Thank you Jenny!
I just finished City of Likes last week, and was extremely thrilled to see Jenny Mollen interviewed on here today! Loved the book (and now the author!)--I binge read it, and probably had every emotion possible during the experience! I highly recommend it!!!