Slightly off topic but all I am thinking about now is how different the response to the Ballerina article would have been if they merely attached a male name as the author. I'm sure much research has been done on this, I may have found a rabbit hole to go down today. Also, have you already discussed how pastors focused so much on gossip being a sin because it kept women from warning each other about the ahem, bad behavior of the men in the church? I can't remember which substack or book discussed that.
oh wow wow wow that is such a good point re male author! YES kelsey writes quite a bit about that in her book (and from a personal experience) - HIGHLY RECOMMEND
When I think of gossip in my life, my mind immediately goes to work gossip. When you are not one of the decision-makers who have an outsized impact of the experience of something that is unfortunately so often a very dominant part of people's lives, gossip becomes not just sense-making for opaque decisions, but also a way to find your people and as many have pointed out below communicate about the people to watch out for in a workplace.
Also, it's just so satisfying to get the tea on a shitty former workplace.
Gossip is powerful intel. Clarity on the origins of current geopolitical events came from what was years ago “just gossip” about the relationship between Wendi Deng, Putin, Ivanka/Jared, and Rupert Murdoch. Ivanka broke up with Jared, and Wendi Deng made sure they got back together and got married. Deng has dated Putin and married/divorced Murdoch. It’s not just society pages, it’s real intel that impacts the world and millions of lives.
I think there’s nothing to feel bad about. To me It’s just discerning and trying to make sense of the world around us. I think the label gossip as applied to any opinion a woman has is also part of systems attempting to shove women into competition even when that isn’t at all a part of what the speaker feels.
I'm pro-gossip (I wrote a whole thing about it: https://wendyrobinson.substack.com/p/on-gossip?utm_source=publication-search) while also acknowledging that some kinds can be hurtful. But I largely think that gossip is functional and is gets a bad rap because it is coded as a primarily female form of communication.
I am trying to get scoop on an employer for a colleague applying to a new job and literally just wrote her today "the fine line between networking and gossip delights me". I like finding out stuff! And sharing what I know! That quickly leads to a real appetite for what could be labeled gossip but which is very often empowering intell. Also agree with everyone else that sometimes you just need a little snark.
This feels like a terrible thing to admit, but I love gossip. I love knowing which of my friends will indulge me when I want to be just a little bit mean and talk about somebody behind their back. (Also, so much of my gossip these days is like, can you believe what so-and-so posted on social media? And you know what, if you post it publicly I figure it's fair game to be talked about.)
Also, I'm a teacher and I spend all day every day not saying at least part of what I'm thinking. And it feels SO GOOD to just let it out sometimes.
There’s little gossip in my circles - partly bc everyone is so consumed by their own lives and its obligations that having an in-depth face-to-face conversation is rare. So when something makes us stop in our tracks, dog waiting at the end of the leash for the walk, or arms full of groceries, or running late but ef it, to share a bit of delicious gossip that can not wait and must be shared, it’s life affirming. We feel connected, part of a community. It’s not mean-spirited, it’s concern, awe, reframing, understanding who we are.
Righ! I completely agree - even when I'm discussing like, someone's shitty life situation or whatever with friends, we're doing so in a way that sort of explores our own humanity. Like, "imagine if I was in such a situation" etc etc. We're not like "wow, her husband cheated on her - what a pathetic loser!" or whatever. you know?
Omg I have rehearsed SO MANY times how I would answer this question (because I ❤️ Normal Gossip and salivate at the idea that someday I might somehow be a guest on the show). My relationship with gossip is complicated. As a girl raised in a small city in “the South” (Texas isn’t *really* the South, but I digress), I was simultaneously inundated with the message that gossip was mean, tacky, vulgar even, AND constant gossip occurring around me. By my mother and her friends, by the teachers in school, by older sisters of friends, by every teenage girl/woman in my vicinity. So I grew up both gossiping AND proclaiming my hatred of gossip! But I thought that’s what everyone did? Fast-forward to college, which, as with many people, was my first real foray into a new world with people from different places and experiences and backgrounds. My sorority was doing their annual slating of officers and I *desperately* wanted to be picked. I wasn’t, partially because I was studying abroad for one semester and therefore wouldn’t have been on campus, but also partially (I learned) because I had a reputation for being a gossip and some of the positions required discretion (lol). This utterly gutted me. Fast-forward to law school where I got elected to a position in a group that required the *most* discretion (mostly of conflicts created by people’s sexual choices) and I thought REDEMPTION. And I held that (and the fact that I worked in a profession that demanded confidentiality) like a badge of honor. Like I had somehow finally “grown up.” And then I was asked to resign when I was 8 months pregnant (not necessarily *because* I was pregnant, but also not not because I was pregnant) and thrown into the shit show that is motherhood. It took me a while to claw out of that hole, but when I did I realized that gossip was a form of power. At first I didn’t want to tell people about what had happened to me professionally (what will they think of me? I don’t want to “disparage” the attorney who did it!) and then it hit me that silence around such things is exactly what allows such things to happen! So while I have a more nuanced understanding of when things should be kept private because someone trusted you with something sensitive, or it could hurt someone, or any other myriad reasons to keep something confidential, I also now understand that the overall “gossip = bad” rhetoric I was raised with is bull shit. Gossip is threatening to those in power, and if those in power can be taken out by the power of gossip, then they probably shouldn’t be in power anymore.
Oh man this is FASCINATING - the more I hear stories like this, the more I am understanding that I grew up viewing gossip as shockingly morally neutral? It just - wasn't something I ever really considered? I just always loved talking about people and their lives and it never occurred to me to be suspicious of that love? I really appreciate the distinction between "shit talk" and gossip - like we all know when we're UNLOADING about something that likely involves someone we're close to, and likely would be supremely uncomfortable if they heard what we were saying! And even that I think stems from a human need to vent feelings that might fester into something uglier without venting?
Gossip helps me (esp with this current post-election year)…. I have felt so gaslit lately with our second female nominee losing, that when I read snark/ gossip I feel heard like “I’m not actually crazy here!”… and to combine commenting on your articles, Brooke Raybould is my Ballerina Farm. When I ran across Brooke’s insta as a new mom, I was momentarily duped that I was doing motherhood wrong. I wasn’t, but it took gossip and snark to show me that I actually wasn’t crazy, that influencers are mostly performing jobs, and that there isn’t just one way to mother correctly. Ironically snark made me feel more confident and open minded about my own and other peoples’ decisions. And helps me realize that we are all different and mostly doing our best, even (most) influencers.
first of all, CONDOLENCES you came across her stuff as a tender new mom - i wouldn't wish that on ANYONE. honestly impressed you lived to tell the tale!!
Gossip at work has been a way to survive powerless situations, for me. It didn’t feel great long term because I was, you know, powerless until I figured a way out. But gossip helped. Socially, like in a moms’ group: hideous. That gossip between moms about other moms (and then gossip with the other moms about the first moms) was about control and about not having skills for actual friendship. Powerlessness, too, I guess, but nothing ever changed. It sucked hard. Great dramatic and sociological material but awful to see and participate in for a while.
Gossipy writing? I love it when the writer’s clearly got a ton of context and earnest curiosity under the snarkiness. And sometimes I just love it.
Ugh man yes - I feel so far from the trenches of like - moms gossiping about other moms' nap schedules or whatever the fuck? I think I mostly blocked it out. But fully agree that it was toxic as fuck.
I totally feel like gossip is an antidote to being gaslit. I had a former job that was toxic for many reasons, and it was made so much worse because I had *no one* I could gossip with about how shitty everything was. Without a confidant or even someone I could simply raise my eyebrows to at meetings, I felt so isolated and kept questioning whether things were as bad as I thought they were. Being able to gossip with people shows that you have some sense of a shared reality: Yes, that person's comment was racist! Yes, our mutual friend is being unreasonable! No, you are not overreacting! I have realized how essential it is in not feeling alone.
I was reading mostly all political substacks up until the election, and I was so happy to have discovered your writing and all your fascinating topics!
And I always get annoyed at critiques of gossip because what is more interesting than people and their choices? I mean, I get how gossip can be done with nastiness, but that’s true of anything, no?
Slightly off topic but all I am thinking about now is how different the response to the Ballerina article would have been if they merely attached a male name as the author. I'm sure much research has been done on this, I may have found a rabbit hole to go down today. Also, have you already discussed how pastors focused so much on gossip being a sin because it kept women from warning each other about the ahem, bad behavior of the men in the church? I can't remember which substack or book discussed that.
oh wow wow wow that is such a good point re male author! YES kelsey writes quite a bit about that in her book (and from a personal experience) - HIGHLY RECOMMEND
I think that was possibly in a recent Celeste Davis' substack article (about gossip and sin)?
When I think of gossip in my life, my mind immediately goes to work gossip. When you are not one of the decision-makers who have an outsized impact of the experience of something that is unfortunately so often a very dominant part of people's lives, gossip becomes not just sense-making for opaque decisions, but also a way to find your people and as many have pointed out below communicate about the people to watch out for in a workplace.
Also, it's just so satisfying to get the tea on a shitty former workplace.
I mean it's the actual best!
Gossip is powerful intel. Clarity on the origins of current geopolitical events came from what was years ago “just gossip” about the relationship between Wendi Deng, Putin, Ivanka/Jared, and Rupert Murdoch. Ivanka broke up with Jared, and Wendi Deng made sure they got back together and got married. Deng has dated Putin and married/divorced Murdoch. It’s not just society pages, it’s real intel that impacts the world and millions of lives.
I think there’s nothing to feel bad about. To me It’s just discerning and trying to make sense of the world around us. I think the label gossip as applied to any opinion a woman has is also part of systems attempting to shove women into competition even when that isn’t at all a part of what the speaker feels.
THIS
I'm pro-gossip (I wrote a whole thing about it: https://wendyrobinson.substack.com/p/on-gossip?utm_source=publication-search) while also acknowledging that some kinds can be hurtful. But I largely think that gossip is functional and is gets a bad rap because it is coded as a primarily female form of communication.
I am trying to get scoop on an employer for a colleague applying to a new job and literally just wrote her today "the fine line between networking and gossip delights me". I like finding out stuff! And sharing what I know! That quickly leads to a real appetite for what could be labeled gossip but which is very often empowering intell. Also agree with everyone else that sometimes you just need a little snark.
This feels like a terrible thing to admit, but I love gossip. I love knowing which of my friends will indulge me when I want to be just a little bit mean and talk about somebody behind their back. (Also, so much of my gossip these days is like, can you believe what so-and-so posted on social media? And you know what, if you post it publicly I figure it's fair game to be talked about.)
Also, I'm a teacher and I spend all day every day not saying at least part of what I'm thinking. And it feels SO GOOD to just let it out sometimes.
I think that last part is HUGE - it feels so good - like physically, emotionally, mentally - to just unadulterated feelings/opinions/thoughts FLY.
There’s little gossip in my circles - partly bc everyone is so consumed by their own lives and its obligations that having an in-depth face-to-face conversation is rare. So when something makes us stop in our tracks, dog waiting at the end of the leash for the walk, or arms full of groceries, or running late but ef it, to share a bit of delicious gossip that can not wait and must be shared, it’s life affirming. We feel connected, part of a community. It’s not mean-spirited, it’s concern, awe, reframing, understanding who we are.
Righ! I completely agree - even when I'm discussing like, someone's shitty life situation or whatever with friends, we're doing so in a way that sort of explores our own humanity. Like, "imagine if I was in such a situation" etc etc. We're not like "wow, her husband cheated on her - what a pathetic loser!" or whatever. you know?
Omg I have rehearsed SO MANY times how I would answer this question (because I ❤️ Normal Gossip and salivate at the idea that someday I might somehow be a guest on the show). My relationship with gossip is complicated. As a girl raised in a small city in “the South” (Texas isn’t *really* the South, but I digress), I was simultaneously inundated with the message that gossip was mean, tacky, vulgar even, AND constant gossip occurring around me. By my mother and her friends, by the teachers in school, by older sisters of friends, by every teenage girl/woman in my vicinity. So I grew up both gossiping AND proclaiming my hatred of gossip! But I thought that’s what everyone did? Fast-forward to college, which, as with many people, was my first real foray into a new world with people from different places and experiences and backgrounds. My sorority was doing their annual slating of officers and I *desperately* wanted to be picked. I wasn’t, partially because I was studying abroad for one semester and therefore wouldn’t have been on campus, but also partially (I learned) because I had a reputation for being a gossip and some of the positions required discretion (lol). This utterly gutted me. Fast-forward to law school where I got elected to a position in a group that required the *most* discretion (mostly of conflicts created by people’s sexual choices) and I thought REDEMPTION. And I held that (and the fact that I worked in a profession that demanded confidentiality) like a badge of honor. Like I had somehow finally “grown up.” And then I was asked to resign when I was 8 months pregnant (not necessarily *because* I was pregnant, but also not not because I was pregnant) and thrown into the shit show that is motherhood. It took me a while to claw out of that hole, but when I did I realized that gossip was a form of power. At first I didn’t want to tell people about what had happened to me professionally (what will they think of me? I don’t want to “disparage” the attorney who did it!) and then it hit me that silence around such things is exactly what allows such things to happen! So while I have a more nuanced understanding of when things should be kept private because someone trusted you with something sensitive, or it could hurt someone, or any other myriad reasons to keep something confidential, I also now understand that the overall “gossip = bad” rhetoric I was raised with is bull shit. Gossip is threatening to those in power, and if those in power can be taken out by the power of gossip, then they probably shouldn’t be in power anymore.
Oh man this is FASCINATING - the more I hear stories like this, the more I am understanding that I grew up viewing gossip as shockingly morally neutral? It just - wasn't something I ever really considered? I just always loved talking about people and their lives and it never occurred to me to be suspicious of that love? I really appreciate the distinction between "shit talk" and gossip - like we all know when we're UNLOADING about something that likely involves someone we're close to, and likely would be supremely uncomfortable if they heard what we were saying! And even that I think stems from a human need to vent feelings that might fester into something uglier without venting?
Gossip helps me (esp with this current post-election year)…. I have felt so gaslit lately with our second female nominee losing, that when I read snark/ gossip I feel heard like “I’m not actually crazy here!”… and to combine commenting on your articles, Brooke Raybould is my Ballerina Farm. When I ran across Brooke’s insta as a new mom, I was momentarily duped that I was doing motherhood wrong. I wasn’t, but it took gossip and snark to show me that I actually wasn’t crazy, that influencers are mostly performing jobs, and that there isn’t just one way to mother correctly. Ironically snark made me feel more confident and open minded about my own and other peoples’ decisions. And helps me realize that we are all different and mostly doing our best, even (most) influencers.
first of all, CONDOLENCES you came across her stuff as a tender new mom - i wouldn't wish that on ANYONE. honestly impressed you lived to tell the tale!!
Gossip at work has been a way to survive powerless situations, for me. It didn’t feel great long term because I was, you know, powerless until I figured a way out. But gossip helped. Socially, like in a moms’ group: hideous. That gossip between moms about other moms (and then gossip with the other moms about the first moms) was about control and about not having skills for actual friendship. Powerlessness, too, I guess, but nothing ever changed. It sucked hard. Great dramatic and sociological material but awful to see and participate in for a while.
Gossipy writing? I love it when the writer’s clearly got a ton of context and earnest curiosity under the snarkiness. And sometimes I just love it.
Ugh man yes - I feel so far from the trenches of like - moms gossiping about other moms' nap schedules or whatever the fuck? I think I mostly blocked it out. But fully agree that it was toxic as fuck.
I totally feel like gossip is an antidote to being gaslit. I had a former job that was toxic for many reasons, and it was made so much worse because I had *no one* I could gossip with about how shitty everything was. Without a confidant or even someone I could simply raise my eyebrows to at meetings, I felt so isolated and kept questioning whether things were as bad as I thought they were. Being able to gossip with people shows that you have some sense of a shared reality: Yes, that person's comment was racist! Yes, our mutual friend is being unreasonable! No, you are not overreacting! I have realized how essential it is in not feeling alone.
I was reading mostly all political substacks up until the election, and I was so happy to have discovered your writing and all your fascinating topics!
And I always get annoyed at critiques of gossip because what is more interesting than people and their choices? I mean, I get how gossip can be done with nastiness, but that’s true of anything, no?
Happy you're here Elizabeth!